What if the best leaders aren’t the ones pretending to have all the answers? In this powerful conversation, leadership consultant and author Jim Brown joins David Lykken to unpack the core message behind his new book, The Imperfect CEO. Together, they explore why authentic leadership, vulnerability, and trust are becoming essential leadership competencies in today’s workplace culture. Drawing on real-world executive coaching experiences, organizational health principles, and practical leadership frameworks, Jim explains how CEOs and emerging leaders can move beyond heroic leadership models to build organizations where employees feel valued, engaged, and empowered. This episode is packed with actionable insights for executives, managers, and anyone committed to creating healthier, high-performing teams.
[David] Listeners, we’re in for another treat on this interview because we have joining us Jim Brown, the author of this particular book, The Imperfect CEO. It caught my attention. When my good friend and mutual client to Jim and I, Dave Hopper, told me about it and he had the privilege of reading an early draft of it. He says, Lykken, you got to listen to this podcast. is, mean, to read this book and get him on your podcast because it is so good and it really gets into some topics that, you know, I think a lot of organizations are struggling with and so we’re hoping to get those things exposed to you. So Jim, good to have you back on the podcast. We’ve had you as a guest before. I have so much respect for you at so many levels. We share a faith together, we share a passion to see healthy, functional organizations. Again, good to have you back.
[Jim] Thank you, David. It’s so great to be with you and it’s always fun to be walking arm in arm with people that are seeing the world the same way. My expectation is that your listeners are going to see some lights go on and some bells go off, so to speak, as they recognize, oh my goodness, that’s exactly what’s going on in my company. that’s how I feel about some of this. So yeah, let’s expect that we’re going to share some keys.
[David] Yeah. Well, and you’re the founder of organizational health, a firm dedicated to helping leaders build healthy life giving, which I love those words and organization and cultures. And that’s one of the things our mutual friend, Dave Hopper is always trying to bring into sight of his organization. But let’s start with your journey. We’ve had you as a guest before, but it’s been a while. We’ll put a link listeners to that previous interview, but let’s again start real briefly, Jim, cover your background and how you got into doing the consulting and coaching that you’re doing.
[Jim] Sure. So part of my crazy story is that I grew up on a farm, you know, I’m a just work is in my DNA. Get up early, go to work. That’s normal life. I started working in a factory when I was 19 and I was shocked to discover that’s not how most people are. They don’t want to get up early. They don’t want to really work. They actually despise their job and I think I shared with you in a previous conversation, David, that I would punch the clock eager for my day to begin and say good morning to the people beside me and they would all tell me to F off. That’s how their day starteda nd I was confronted at that early age with the crazy idea, crazy statistic that more than two thirds of the people in the country actually don’t like where they work. They don’t like their job.
[David] Yeah. And so here’s an important point. People show up grumpy, telling people, I they start their day off with a bad attitude and it’s not because they want to, it’s because they found themselves in an organization that doesn’t value them or doesn’t do it. And that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. So it’s not a condition. I mean, I don’t fault some of the workers. mean, some workers just can have a funky attitude no matter what, but a lot of people that show up and the listeners, if you’re aspiring to be a leader, You are a leader. You should check the health of your organization and then start listing closely to what you could do. Cause you’re partly responsible for the attitudes that show up in your office every day. If there’s funkiness, if there’s just bad attitudes going on, they’re grumpy. mean, okay, let’s say they’re grumpy after their second cup of coffee and then we’ll give them one coffee to get turned around. After that, it’s kind of on you a little bit leader. Yes, it’s on them, but it’s a shared responsibility.
[Jim] It’s that powerful line from John Maxwell, everything rises and falls on the leader. I believe it. It might not be comfortable, but we gotta figure out, if this is happening and I’m not satisfied with it, what’s my role in causing it? But more importantly, what’s my role in overcoming it? and boy, there are some very clear actions that leaders can take to address this.
[David] Yeah, and that’s what we’re going to get into today. And I’m really excited to have you here again.
[Jim] So I’ve been doing this for just over 30 years, David, working with leaders of companies and boards of directors to create those healthy organizations where they love their jobs and everybody that works in the company loves it as well.
[David] Yeah, we’re going be talking about your book, The Imperfect CEO, but your first book, what was the title of that again?
[Jim] The imperfect board member, so they’re very connected.
[David] Yes. Very connected. And it’s really true. And you do work with a lot of boards out there and you serve on boards, you advisor to boards and it’s a high calling because you’re working at the highest levels in these organizations. So I love the title, The Imperfect CEO. Why are CEOs imperfections hidden? and what is the aspect, there’s a driver about this that translates all the way through the whole organization. Why is that?
[Jim] Yeah, we have this crazy script in the Western world that leaders are supposed to be confident and certain and have all the answers and strong, you know? like it’s, they’re supposed to be perfect and they feel obligated to show up that way. But the truth is we are all imperfect and the truth is everyone knows we’re imperfect. What I’m seeing is a movement of embracing the reality where leaders recognize, pretending is exhausting. I can’t pretend any longer. See, real leadership begins the moment we stop pretending and that’s the critical piece. When leaders can say, I’m going to show up to my meeting with my team, my trusted lieutenant, so to speak, and I’m going to admit where I have some questions or even faults, weaknesses, and invite them to bring their strength because there’s a powerful maxim in the world which is if I surrender my weaknesses and let you bring your strengths, we’re always going to be better off. We’re always going to be stronger.
[David] Yeah, and I think the young executives struggle with this because they think they’re supposed to be all things, all aspects of the organization. They’re young leaders. And I think as you get older, like you and I are both up there a few years and been doing this for a while, I think we learn to accept our imperfections and then we build our around our organizations around our imperfection. We build others and you and I both share a passion for the six working geniuses.
[Jim] Yes.
[David] That is that and personality profiles are do so much to start shining the light on it. Maybe it’s not an imperfection as much as it’s just not a strength of yours. And we then put on ourselves, I’m imperfect in this area. Maybe it’s because you weren’t wired to do that. We both have a faith in God and we both believe that God we’re create uniquely created and each of us need to bring our A game or I would call it the G game, the God game, the God that design that brought us. to where we’re at, to who we are, and learn to do that. And then when we do operate in our strengths and not try to be something we’re not, then I think we really start opening up and the organization starts getting healthier. I wanna talk a little bit about that. How does the Imperfect CEO, which is written in a storytelling manner, which I really like, Patrick Lencioni, you are good friends with Patrick Lencioni, who writes in a…
[Jim] Long time friends actually was a consulting partner with the table group for 15 years. Yes.
[David] Wow. He is such a good, I love his book and I love how he writes in the fables because you start reading the book and then you can’t set it down because it’s such a catchy thing. And I’m glad you wrote this in that same way. How does the Imperfect CEO blend storytelling with the practical leadership framework and why do you think that combination resonates across CEOs, boards and emerging leaders.
[Jim] Sure, first of all, storytelling is actually an approach to communication, message transfer that has been around forever. Like actually, you go back to the Bible and the most powerful pieces in the Bible are parables where Jesus told a story. In fact, there’s even a verse in the Bible, a translation of the Bible that said, and Jesus spent the day telling stories. I love it. See, people read a story and they start to be absorbed in it. Rather than feeling like the book is telling them what they’re doing wrong, they start identifying with some of the characters or they identify people around them. Charlie is just like that person in the book. And now it’s a commentary on the real world that we’re operating in as opposed to a, is how you need to do your job. Ken Blanchard, when he was, giving me some feedback, feedback on my first book, Ken said, what I love about this book is I never feel like you’re shouting at me. I feel like you’re just talking with me. Yeah.
[David] Yes. Shouting or shaming. think there’s a lot of shaming that goes into some books. You need to do this. You need to wire. And I just, know, Brene Brown does such a good job of getting shame out of our lives. If you haven’t listened to that listeners, you gotta go grab those books or even those Ted talks are really good.
[Jim] Yeah. So bring the story to get the message delivered. And then I come alongside with in the book, I call it coaching highlights, where there’s some incident happens in the story and now I’ve got a set of questions that I’m asking people to reflect on, and some exercises that you can do with your whole leadership team and beyond that. So very practical extension of the story that people find themselves immersed in.
[David] Yeah, a lot of leaders have the personality type, which Hippocrates refers to as a cleric, the profile of the flag, not flag, the disc profile calls it direct and they, you know, it’s kind of like, don’t tell me about the baby. Just don’t, don’t give me a, don’t tell me about the labor pains. Just show me the baby. That whole expression. mean, they want to get to the point. So how does a cleric leader, go into mixing, bringing a story in there, or how does someone with a storytelling style speak to the clerics in the room? Because a lot of CEOs, board members are very direct. And so how does that work?
[Jim] Let me confess, I am that style. I am a high D and pound forward. But I also have noticed that, in fact, this is a little bit crazy little insight into my story. 11 years ago, I had a heart attack and my sister came to visit me and she said, hey, I was just at the library to pick up a book, but you’re gonna be laying around for a little bit. You should read this. It was a fiction book. I had not read fiction since I was a teenager because I’m too driven. I’m reading the business books. But I read this and man, it was fabulous. I was transported to another world. And I ended up reading every book in the series of that author. What I discovered is that even we driven people can be immersed in a story, especially if it’s a story that we identify with. We like to see how things make sense, how things connect in the world, even though it’s a fantasy world, as in a, you know, it’s a hypothetical story as opposed to a documentary. So, yeah, yes, there’s a few people. I will admit, David, that now and then, I read a review on Amazon of my first book and somebody said, this is stupid. I only lasted 10 pages because it’s a story and I’m thinking, well, if you’d read three things on the cover, you would have known that that’s what it is, but whatever. Most people are we’ve taken the time yet.
[David] Yeah. But I think you’re really bringing up a really, we really bring up a really good point. There’s a transference in when we get more relaxed, there’s a transfer of knowledge and wisdom that happens in a story, especially a fable, a parable, such as you, you and Patrick Lencioni, so skillfully write in. And I think we need to, as I’m always in my consulting and coaching with the leaders I work with, I’m going, it’s a great point what you’re making. Can you put a story around it? because it’s going to stick with a story.
[Jim] So true. Yes, leaders are discovering that if they want to really get their leadership message to land with their people, they got to figure out how to tell it in a story and the beautiful thing in that context, David, is that if you can use stories about your people in your organization, make heroes out of your people who are doing the things that you’re asking everyone else to be doing.
[David] That’s a great way to put it. You like one person said, people are like elevators, either taking you up or taking you down. And I think the more we can do to elevate and celebrate someone else is doing well in organization, again, a sense of message across the whole organization. You challenged the idea of heroic leadership. I want to have you explain that and then I want to really get into what is the fallacy of that? Where’s the problems in heroic leadership?
[Jim] This is that concept that leaders put on themselves, that they’re supposed to be the hero, the answer to every question. Let me tell you a story. I worked with a team. A woman had started this company. It was probably seven years old by that time. They’d grown significantly. And what I often do is I ask my clients, I want to just sit in one of your team meetings before we go deep because I want to see what you’re swimming in and so I’m in this meeting and every, every time a question gets answered, everyone’s eyes turned to the leader and no one said anything. Finally, she spoke. And at the end of the meeting, when others had left, said, What happened? Did you notice what happens when you ask it when a question gets asked? Yeah, everybody counts on me and having the answers. Yeah. But do you know what that does? Well, they get the answers. Yeah, but it means that they don’t think of the answers. It means that they are they’ve been scripted into believing that you’re the only one that has the answer that counts and that you’re not convinced they have any answers. Well, that’s not what I think. I believe you actually, I do believe you. But that’s what they’re doing, that’s what they’re showing you. So here’s my coaching to you in the moment, I’m saying to this CEO. The next time you get asked a question, I want you to take a breath and say, that’s a great question. What do you think we should do about that? And over the next few months, she actually worked hard at this, David. Some people can’t, but she did and she discovered that people have a lot of good ideas. See, she was carrying this weight. She was being the hero. She thought she was supposed to be the hero. She doesn’t think she wants to be the hero. She just thought she was supposed to be the hero. And it’s so exhausting, not only because of the weight you carry, but because of the projection that you have to show of you, you’ve got it all figured out, except you don’t, none of us have it all figured out and we can’t admit any doubt. So we go home and doubt by ourselves.
[David] And I think there’s so much about that particular story that we’ve seen. It’s exhausting for the leader and you’re not developing your people that you’ve hired to lead your organization. They’re more into execution of your idea rather than something. And they’re oftentimes the ones that don’t feel valued at the end and we need to make people feel valued. And it’s a really, really good point. There’s also a slap down type leadership style, where people try to come up with an idea and unintentionally, the heroic leader, they don’t ask enough questions. So as a leader, one thing you hit on there is ask questions, even though you have an immediate opinion. And I’ve seen that one come up in far too many organizations.
[Jim] So, this has been going on for probably 10 years now, David, and I bet you’ve been seeing the same thing as me. It used to be, 10 plus years ago, that people expected leaders to have the answers. The broad population expected it. But certainly for people that you’re working with who are in their 20s and early 30s, that doesn’t actually play anymore. They don’t expect you to have the answers.
[David] In fact, they almost get dubious of you as a leader if you think you’re coming across and projecting that you do have all the answers.
[Jim] Because they are certain that that means you haven’t asked enough questions yet. What’s going through their head is, but what about this and what would we do about that? As a leader, if we could begin by saying, hey, this is a big challenge that we’re facing. We just got a new competitor that’s more than twice our size and I don’t have all the answers, but let me tell you some of the questions that I’m asking about this. What are we going to do that will demonstrate our strength in a way that the market’s gonna recognize in comparison to this new player? And you ask a bunch of those questions. The more questions that you ask that they’re asking themselves, the safer they feel. The leader gets it.
[David] Or invite them into the conversation of asking, and say, these are the questions that are going on in my head, what are the questions going on in your head? I mean, just throw it open, and that really starts inviting people in. And you know what, if you’ve been in an organization that has been doing that for a long period of time, it may take some time for that culture to shift, and you start getting some genuine, authentic Leadership Ideas Audio Organization. I’m sure you’ve seen this.
[Jim] I’m wondering, you probably read the book about Alan Mullally’s leadership of Ford. And I’ve had the pleasure of doing, spending some time with Alan. And I love how he tells the story of his team, leadership team meetings. And he kept saying, I want to hear the bad news. I need you to bring what we’re not doing well. And finally, one of their team members said, yeah, we’re losing a lot of money here. This is a red flag. And everyone around the room thought, you know, Allan was going to push a button and the chair was going to fall through the floor. But he did the opposite. He said, finally, thank you. This is what we need. I know that it’s not all green in this company. We’re on schedule to lose $17 billion this year.
[David] This is when he was running. It’s called the American icon. Isn’t that the book of the American icon? Yeah. Because he is an, Alan is an iconic leader and how he turned Ford around. He also turned Boeing around. He’s turned on so around so many organizations, just a brilliant leader and it came through inviting people to bring our body, asking the right question and insisting on people participating and that gets to be an interesting part. One of the things I wanted to get on your mind there is how do people, how do you draw that out? When you’re working with an organization, you’re sitting there and as advisor to the organization and you’re hearing people play Kate, you’re hearing people withhold, how do you draw that out of them?
[Jim] Yeah. Well, I think we need to lean into Brene Brown here because I believe that what Brene has beautifully helped more and more leaders grasp is that the old world said vulnerability is evidence of weakness, but the new world says vulnerability can be our superpower. So as a leader, if we would set the tone by admitting our doubts, our questions, our faults. Then we start to make some space for other people to believe that they could be letting their imperfection show and it wouldn’t disqualify them from being at the table. So as a leader, there’s just been so many of my clients that I’ve said, okay, your next meeting, let’s walk through how you’re gonna start differently. And I asked them to begin by saying, guys, we need to talk about something that I’m pretty uncomfortable about. I know that I…
[David] That’s a great way to start it. love that one that I’m it’s a shows vulnerability right for the great standpoint.
[Jim] I know. Yeah, exactly. I know that we chased down this path because I believe this is what was going to give us the breakthrough. And I have to humbly admit that it hasn’t worked. We’re not getting there. There’s something wrong with the plan that I’ve been the champion of. I regret that I’ve been pushing that. People’s eyes get wide. The bad news, David, is that they’ve all been thinking that it’s the wrong plan, but finally they’re hearing the leader become open and self-aware. And now they feel like, yes, so powerful. So the more that we demonstrate vulnerability and authenticity, the more we welcome that from our team and the better exchange that we’ll have. The more constructive questions that our people are gonna ask about any idea that comes. The more brave ideas that will be shared, knowing that they’re not gonna be laughed out of the room just because the boss doesn’t agree with the idea. Everything gets better when the leader courageously becomes imperfect and making that acceptable.
[David] That’s so good. There’s the key word, making imperfection acceptable while still pursuing excellence, which is possible. I mean, that’s how you get to excellence, is what you argue in your book. You also argue in the book that trust is no longer a soft value, but a performance multiplier. How does this happen? What do you mean by that?
[Jim] Well, boy, you caught me at just the right moment. spent last weekend with Stephen R. Covey. He wrote, he wrote the speed of trust.
[David] Wow. He wrote the cover, he wrote the forward, a beautiful writing, but what a great friendship you have there.
[Jim] It’s a treasure. I treasure our friendship. He is so brilliant, so wise about the power of trust and one of the things that he really underscores is that while we focus on being trustworthy, what we as leaders need to become better at is becoming trusting. So when a person on our team brings their idea forward, we trust that they’ve done the work to examine this idea rather than saying, but what about this? I’ve thought about that before and I didn’t like this and this and this. And that’s the slap down that you were talking about, David. Right away, we are telling the leader, we’re not convinced they’ve done the necessary work. We’ve done it, but they probably haven’t. By contrast, we could begin by saying, David, I know that you take your role very seriously. So you will have done a lot of work figuring out that this is an option that we should consider. Walk us through some more of the backgrounding that you did to come up with this answer so that we can understand it better.
[David] That’s really good. So let’s go to how many people are winging it in these meetings. I mean, because they have been in a culture where they have not been encouraged to think, so they kind of start stepping out and they really haven’t done the homework. you’re by giving this to them a credit, it’s a soft way of kind of disciplining, thinking and assuming they have, but when you find they haven’t, how do you provide a soft landing to build trust so you draw it out rather than trip over, land over. I’m thinking of a scenario right now, a story where we were talking and I was talking with a leader and they go, I tried what Jim Brown says and he said to do this and try this way and then what happened out of that is it was like the dumbest idea I’ve ever had. I knew they were pulling this right out of their butt, right out of there to bring it forward. And he says, I’m struggling with a way to how to honor them for stepping up because they’re one of the one first ones to speak out without shaming them. And how do you develop? it’s developing and nurturing an organization and bringing it out. Some will get out there extemporaneously thinking have not thought it all the way through how not to shame those ideas, how to encourage all ideas come forward. Often say we like the most thought out ideas, but how do you do that in organizations?
[Jim] So, I like how you’re framing this. The first thing we need to do as leaders is realize the reason they showed up that way is because we conditioned them to show up that way. So don’t be mad at them. We just invited them to take a step that previously they were told they should never take. So the fact that they took a step actually is a good sign. Now we need to help them take a better step. And so we’ll say, you know what? I’d have to do some more thinking about that. I’m sure all of us would want to, but no idea is an idea that we immediately dismiss. What would be some questions that we all would want to get answered so that we can explore this possibility a little bit more? And we just invite people in the room to ask, well, how would it affect our other market, what would the cost be, whatever, good questions that people come up with. And as a leader, I would start writing that down on my pad in front of my, like just with pad and paper and showing that these questions are important questions. I like that. that’s a good question. And then I…
[David] Yeah, the act of writing, what you’re saying is the act of writing it down creates a certain level of respect and a validation. That’s a really good point. Really good point. Even though when you’re writing it down, you’re going like, wonder where the world that came up with this. You can be doubting it, having your own self talk internally about it, but to create the culture, you need to continue to draw that out is what you’re saying.
[Jim] So then I would redirect back to the person who brought this idea forward and say, well, I’ve got a page of some really good questions. You’ve probably been writing them down yourself. Can we agree that this time next week when we meet, you’re going to have actually positioned us as a team to dig into this by giving us a bit of a background or with all of those questions and any others that come to mind answered so that we’ve got some pre-reading and then we can dive in with both feet, so to speak.
[David] I love this topic. I could just go on and on and on and we’re running out of time. So what I want to do is I just want to encourage people to get both of your books. This book, especially if you are trying aspiring to be a leader or you are a leader, whether you’re the CEO or not President, whatever it is, grab this book because it starts getting into some of these very principles we’re talking about this podcast. Let’s go through this. And by the way, thank you so much. Your publisher, you had your publisher send this to me. There’s just, I got so inspired just reading Steven Covey’s introduction here, but you really get into talking about this. Tell us, so without giving away this fable, tell us a little bit, what is this fable about to draw people in so that they will want to pick this book up and read it?
[Jim] So David Slater is the lead character. He’s the CEO of a technology company. And he’s noticing that the things that used to work in his leadership don’t seem to be working. There’s something about how people aren’t engaging like they used to. They aren’t just doing what he said we should be doing. And he recognizes that something’s got to change and humbly discovers with the experience from his closest team, his senior ELT, that there are some things that he’s got to change. But there are also some things that the whole company has to change and they start working together to create not just the culture of the team, but the culture of the company. Because it turns out, David, that our company’s culture, whether we design it or not, there is one and the bad news is that if we haven’t been very intentional about creating a healthy culture, it never defaults to a great one. It defaults to a dismissive culture, a dangerous culture. As leaders, we can take responsibility to step that up. And yeah, it’s a discovery journey for David to recognize that, he’s responsible for a lot of the things that aren’t working the way that he wishes they would. And it would be nice if we could blame somebody else. It would be nice if we could just say, smarten up, but that does not work. I’m not convinced it ever worked, but it certainly doesn’t work anymore.
[David] Well, it gets some results a little bit, but it’s what the destruction is being done below the surface cause you’re really breaking trust, which is the number one thing I love how you and I both believe that is so important. I just can’t encourage listeners to read this book. Number one, but also I suspect what’s going to happen, Jim, they’re going to get addicted to you and your message and your So how could they learn more about you? Do you have a YouTube channel? Do you have a website? How can people learn more and then eventually have you come in and talk to them?
[Jim] Sure. There are a few channels that I would encourage people to look at. Certainly come to our company website: orghealthteam.com.
[David] orghealthteam.com.
[Jim] Right? Visit our book website, which is imperfectceobook.com. And then find me on LinkedIn. my goodness. I am a believer that that is a medium to exchange great ideas. I’m posting all the time and I’m so enjoying the engagement that we get from so many people that are connected to me and part of the conversation. What I’m noticing, David, is that this idea, this dream that I have that people would lead their companies so that everyone working there would love their job, it’s not just my idea. There’s a whole lot of other voices that are pushing people in the same direction and what I’m finding is that those voices are engaging in LinkedIn and we’re just amplifying and multiplying the good thinking. yeah, take advantage of the conversations that are happening there.
[David] Yeah. I encourage people to just get to know you. I want to give a big major shout out again to David Hopper at LeaderOne for connecting me with you originally, and then encourage me to read this latest book and then have you on the podcast. I, again, I just, so if there’s any life calling I have, it’s a, we share that in common. And I think what’s, what’s so interesting is how we are you all uniquely created. And so we bring a different approach to it. I love your approach with how you do this personal. just love your personality. How you’ve been able to subdue that, that a personality driver personality and be able to channel it as you have. It’s, just that in itself as a whole podcast. I’d love to hear that one.
[Jim] Always be great to have more conversations with you, David. I love it.
[David] Yeah, I’ll enjoy it. Thanks for taking time out of your day to day, Jim, to be here with me. Appreciate you get the book, folks, The Imperfect CEO. You will not be able to set this one down. It’s right up there. And now one of my favorite books. I’ll be recommending it to all my clients. Jim, thank you so much for being here, friend.
[Jim] Thank you, bless you.
[David] Blessings!