Lykken on Lending

In our Hot Topic this week we have Tony Caico founder & president of Affinity Five

Click to Listen Live Monday, at 12pm (central) or call (646) 716-4972 to listen live!

The discussion will focus on finding out if you are in a job/career that aligns with your skillset, dreams, and purpose….

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Career Shepherding With Tony Caico

They say, “Find something you enjoy doing and you’ll never work another day of your life.” This isn’t work. This is fun. I’m so excited to be able to join you. I was listening to a podcast that I was recorded on. It was Alec Hanson. I could hardly listen to it because I was so amped up. I was so excited to be there with Alec. Whatever you do, don’t listen to that interview. It was good about storytelling, but it was like I was on three cups of espresso and a bunch of sugar lumps. It was high energy. Anyway, we love doing this show and are so glad you’re reading it. This show does get read.

My daughter’s home from work. She’s up in Dallas and some of her associates at Will0ow Bend, “We don’t read all of them, Dad, but we get them on and we do watch it. It’s pretty cool that you’re doing this.” We hear that from so many. Thank you so much, everybody. This show is created by mortgage professionals. It is for mortgage professionals. We’re glad to have you as our reader.

What we’re committed to is to bring you timely information in a format that you can read anytime and anywhere. We’ve got some great content. Most of the regulars are off. Alice was texting me earlier. She says, “There’s not a lot in the legislative update.” Les Parker’s here. The MBA’s Mortgage Minute is not here in this episode, but we’ve got an update on the macro view of the market, so we’ll get it.

Talking about that podcast with Alec, there’s a consequence to listening to podcasts or books on tape at 125% to 150%. What’s resulting is that I am picking up the rate at which I speak. I’ve gone back and listened to some of my episodes and there are times where I have these bursts where it’s coming at you like a machine gun. We welcome your feedback on anything we can do better. I’m always about improving. We’re always working on improving, which is a great segue into our Hot Topic segment. It’s Tony Caico. He’s the Founder and President of Affinity Five.

The focus of this interview will be on you and your job, your career, and how it aligns with your skillset, dreams, and purpose. There’s some great information there. I call Tony Caico your Career Sherpa. He should be the guy that’s guiding you up the career mountain and he just does an excellent job. You’re going to read about it in the Hot Topic segment.

There are some things I want to talk about, though, because as we’re focusing on careers, career development, and leadership development, what’s interesting is that one of the fastest growing segments of the transformational mortgage solutions consulting business and coaching business is the coaching on leadership. We’re going to be talking about something that I found as a very useful tool.

Thank you to our sponsors, the Mortgage Bankers Association of America, Finastra with their Fusion Mortgage Bot solution, as well as Lenders One and the Mortgage Collaborative and the Community Mortgage Lenders of America and Insellerate, Josh Friend and our friends over at Knowledge Coop. Mobility MMI, Modex and there’s so many others. You can check them all out on our sponsorship page. I urge you to do so. Also, a special thank you to all of our regulars.

These are some of the things that we’re doing and you’re going to read about Tony in the interview. We got to get deeper in the weeds. He’s going to be talking about what has happened from managers from yesterday to now. This is interesting. Tony Caico is a great resource to me personally and to many of my clients. I believe you’re going to enjoy this interview.

Without further ado, let’s get over to Tony Caico. He is a celebrated recruiter who has helped shepherd the careers of many executives and has done an amazing job. When we’re looking to find executives for one of our clients, he’s become the go-to guy, not because he gets his good people, but because he has guided the careers of many executives. There’s a lot of wisdom here. I hope you enjoy this interview. Tony, it’s good to have you joining us.

It’s great to be here.

Let’s start off by talking about how careers have changed. The evolution of the executive careers, things that have changed and things that have not changed. Talk about that, please.

My expertise lies within the financial services, real estate lending, primarily mortgage banking arena. My sense is when I talk to recruiters in other industries that there are similar changes in those industries too. For the purposes of our conversation, we’ll talk mainly about the mortgage business because that’s what you and I are in every day. I do executive recruiting in and around the mortgage business. Anything mortgage origination-related, vendor-related, support-related, or anything in the mortgage business are things that I focus on.

I’ve morphed into a more executive role. When I first opened my organization years ago, I did a lot of production business. I still do some of that, but I primarily do executive work now. I get to talk to a lot of executives, which I love to do because I personally was in the business as a mortgage executive for seventeen years.

What’s great is when I get to talk to individuals who are either going through or have gone through some of the things that I have gone through in the business. As you know, Dave, our industry changes so rapidly. The ebbs and flows of the interest rate environment, technology, outsourcing, and all the things that change in our industries, at times, executives find themselves in a spot where they need to make changes.

 

You talking about executives are finding changes within their staffing, how they’re hiring, within themselves, or all the above?

I’m going to say all the above, but namely for our conversation, within themselves. We want to stay focused on the executives themselves because their skillsets sometimes evolve into what the changes are in the industry. Sometimes they don’t. Sometimes, as an executive, you need to change what you were doing into what’s more relevant in the industry now.

I can give you a relevant example of that from myself and my own experience. A lot of executives I’ve talked to have gone through this. Back when I was in an executive role in the mortgage business, I was in third party as a manager. At that point in time, the business was thriving and the manager needed to be a strong leader.

I spent a lot of time on leadership books that I studied over the years, which helped me be a strong leader, helped me to know how to do a PowerPoint presentation, and speak in front of a large group of people. Those things were very prevalent back when I was in the industry as a manager. I noticed things changed over time. In the modern world, managers who have similar jobs that I had back then need to be more utilitarian in nature. You need to know what’s going on.

It’s still about leadership, but you’re talking about how you need to get deeper into exactly understanding what’s going on. Utilitarians could almost say you have to have strong technical skills in order to do this.

There’s no question because it’s about value, which is the next topic here. It’s about the value that you represent in the marketplace. The leadership qualities that I talked about before are always important. Companies always need strong leaders. They always need people to manage the team and have the team’s respect. In order to do that in this market these days, like modern day, present day, you better know what they’re doing and how to do what they’re doing.

If you want to get the respect and be able to keep up with the changes that are going on, you better know what they are because you will lose a position to an up-and-coming executive who understands the technology better, understands the process better, that understands how things have evolved better than you may have.

Thinking over the industry in my years in it, I’m thinking about this and realizing I’ve always prided myself in being a good technician and a good leader, but you’re saying this has become more so. I do remember so much. I remember the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac representatives that used to call on us and there was so much about, “Let’s go out and have a great dinner,” that great bottle of wine and all that. I couldn’t care less about that. I care less about it back then. You’re saying, what are you going to do for me now? You’re talking about the measurable items that revolve around the details and the metrics of the business, correct?

Exactly. You were a step ahead of me. I was the opposite of what you described. I was the one who was the relationship person. I focused on recruiting, sales, and leadership. I never got caught up in the details. At that point in time in my career, it was what the industry needed. It’s what my team needed. As things started to change, I realized that I had to change.

For me, anyway, morphing back into recruiting, I shifted into doing it full-time. In other words, I thought that’s who I was. My identity was tied up in that. I realized that because I wasn’t up to speed on the technical skills, the loan process, and all the details that I needed, I had to either learn that stuff or do something else. I went and did something else.

Talking about how leadership has morphed in the details. Leadership is leadership, people think, and yes, it is. When you’re leading a group of people about the details, what I’m hearing you say is it is important that you know those details and be able to communicate and relate to those you’re leading about the specific metrics. I want to draw in on that because I people could almost hear you saying, “Additionally, it was focused on leadership, now it’s focused on details.” How are you moving leadership into the details?

It was always important to be involved with the details. In our business, at certain times, it was less important because loans were coming in. Now, it’s more important because when the market starts to shift, because the people that are on your team need to be led by somebody that’s going to lead them in the direction to improving their business. It’s not how I’m going to talk to a customer. It’s what can I describe to you about your customer through our technology through the way we can do business that’s going to make you a better salesperson.

There are two different things, and the latter thing I said is critical in the market nowadays. Leadership is always important, but leading by example through technology specifically is very important. Some of them, like me, didn’t stay up on it. Fortunately for me, I had other skills to draw back upon. I was able to go back into recruiting, which is what I do now.

Although leadership is always important, leading by example through technology is extremely important. Share on X

It’s important that you find your sweet spot, which is getting into what is your purpose. I always ask people, “What’s your why? Why are you doing this?” If you don’t have a solid why, which is why and purpose are joined together. One’s the left hip, and one’s the right hip. I think they’re both right there at the foundation of who we are and what we’re doing. Your purpose is found in what you can do well. I think yours is recruiting. You said, “My real sweet spot, my real purpose, my real why is my ability to recognize and develop talent.”

That’s somewhat true. I would say that the purpose and the why are more geared around helping others improve their careers. It goes back to a strong faith that I have. My goal is to wake up every day, putting one foot in front of the next to help the next person and do the next right thing. My why would be centered on helping others, which always has been. As a recruiter, it’s what I believe. One of the things that separates me is that I can connect with people and they know by talking to me that I’m interested in putting them in a better spot than they’re in now.

People are wired for relationships. The worst thing you can do is isolate yourself. Share on X

Isn’t that a great why for anything we’re doing, helping people and making it less about your compensation, your deal? It should be about helping others.

I think so. The old saying is the more time you spend helping others, your life enhances in correlation with that all the time. Another thing to consider is that your purpose and your life stage also sometimes change. You get married, you have kids, things get different, the industry changes. You realize that your skillset is a little different. Sometimes, it’s very important to be aligned with the purpose and make sure if there needs to be a change, that you talk to somebody.

You talk to somebody like me about that somebody’s a career shepherd or a recruiter or a consultant like yourself that can walk somebody through that because it’s sometimes difficult to figure out because we can get wrapped around the axles, as you know, and the quagmire of the mortgage business. We get stuck. We get stuck in a job. We get stuck in a place where we’re busy. Next thing you know, we’ve lost sight of our purpose because we’re taking care of the things and we’re not aligned with the bigger purpose of our lives. If we’re not aligned with that, then when we wake up in the morning and go to do our job, we don’t feel the same way.

People who knew you back then would say that this is a completely different Tony Caico out there and making a difference in lives because you might say you were a lot about yourself back then.

It’s funny, I think I was, although there was something inside that led me into being a good relationship person and caring for people. My actions were different than my past. I did a lot of things for my own self-worth and my own identity. Where now I don’t. Those have been the changes in me. Dave, if you align that with your career, some people like to try and separate it and I don’t think you can.

If you try and separate that and you try and be one person to your family and another person to your business relationships, you’re going to cross lines and your family’s going to get crossed up when you’re trying to be Mr. Businessman and your business people are going to get crossed up when you’re trying to be Mr. Family Man. You need to be Dave all the time.

 

You need to be who you are generally and have good boundaries. I love one of the books. Going back and reading his Boundaries for Leaders by Dr. Henry Cloud, I love that book. It’s one that’s speaking again to many executives about leadership and it’s having good boundaries. It’s being a leader at home, being a good leader in your work, and caring about others.

That’s always been there, but we do get wrapped up in the details. We certainly have had one of those industries that has demanded so much of anybody and everybody in it. How are you coaching and shepherding those who are coming to you through these times where there’s so much incredible demand on their time and struggling with the work-life balance?

For me, that care, authenticity, and transparency are verbs. They’re not nouns. You can sit around and talk and guys like you and I talk for a living. I do too. I’m a recruiter, so I’m talking all the time. We can spend hours talking to somebody and not do anything. It’s about action. When you’re talking to somebody, I’m talking to an executive, I help them put plans in place.

Care, authenticity, and transparency are not nouns. They are verbs. Share on X

“Let’s do a circle of personal perspective. Let’s take a look at your life, your spirituality, your work, your career, your children, your family, your economics, the money that you’re earning. Let’s talk about all that stuff and then let’s put a plan together in place.” I like to follow up on things that I say with things that I do.

That gets us into the measurement part of this thing because what you’re talking about, a lot of people say, “I aspire to do this, I want to do this,” and then you come back and say, “How are you measuring it?” I’m finding people have ideals. They have admirable goals and objectives. They have things they want to accomplish that you and I would both say align with our values. When you ask them how they’re measuring it, “I’m working out again, I could carry this amount of weight, I lift this much, push this much. Now I’m recognizing how many more reps I could do it.” There’s a measurement component to that. Talk about that.

It’s interesting because you have to have a source. Everybody has a different source. Mine is my faith. There’s an analogy of a police dog. If you look at a police dog and how a police dog is trained and you watch a video of a police dog, the police dog doesn’t do anything unless the owner tells him to do something. There’s a source. He’s looking up at the owner.

For me, it’s my faith. I have someone that I go to look towards when I want to make a decision. It’s like my home base. Everybody needs a home base and it’s attached to your purpose and it’s your ethos for your life. If you don’t have a home base, you’re not going to get the first, second, or third. You got to have a home base. That helps me keep everything in perspective, especially when I’m helping others. I share a lot of this because I own my own company so I can.

We have to understand that there are people that work for organizations. You can’t share a lot of personal things. I get that. For me, I do because I can. It is my ethos and it is my home base. That’s why I share. It keeps me lined up when I’m helping others with what is the next right thing to do. That’s what helps me be authentic to them. They know where I’m coming from. They’re going to get the same type of response every single time. That’s not a substitution for a plan. As you said before, you’ve got to have a plan. You got to put it down on paper. You got to put goals down and you got to have measurements.

You need to do that. I would recommend once a year, let’s look at your goals, look at your ethos, and your circle of personal perspective, however you do it. It’s like the first book I wrote, My Back Nine. It had nine key components of life. The goal was the second half of your life, you want it to be different from your first. At least I did. I wrote a book about the nine key components of life, family, spirituality, career, health, and fitness. Each year, I measure where I am on all those nine components. It’s a healthy exercise.

What’s your second book?

My second book is called Restoration by Water’s Edge.

It is when we shift our focus to having it be about others. At that point, you do run out of things and that you were talking about the quiet time. I had that same hour plus quiet time in the morning. It’s so wonderful that you have found a way to bring that into the marketplace and guiding people because people are hungry.

You’re right, especially in this day and age that we’re in now with what’s happened in Afghanistan and our world. Without faith, I don’t know what you can hang your hat on. You can’t hang your hat on technology, the company you work for, or even the people in your life. There has to be an overarching theme. It’s very important to have that true North.

One of my topics here was when to retire. I have no desire to retire. I’m pushing retirement age too. I’ve been at this for a while and I have friends that have already retired, but I see no reason to retire. I love doing what I do. I get to help people daily, getting them in a better position. One of the things I say often to candidates is that, “If I can’t put you in a better spot, I’m not going to do the deal.”

That’s getting to a good point. When is it important to change careers? Someone feels locked in, “I have faith, I can’t talk about it, I can’t do this, I can’t do that.” When is it important to stay and when is it important to make a change?

Number one, there’s a personal skillset that changes and you don’t enjoy what you’re doing anymore. That’s something to consider because that happens over time. Your skillset changes. You like to do different things now. You’re not in the right job. Maybe you can get into a different job with your own organization, pursue your skillset, what your purpose is, and how all that ties together. That’s a good time to change.

Maybe the culture of your organization doesn’t align with your purpose. You see them changing. You see the things that they do. I get involved with a lot of conversations with executives that, “I don’t believe in this culture anymore.” We always talk about doing something bigger than ourselves. If you’re not sure about the whys behind the whats and the whens in your organization, it may be time to consider a change.

The whys are important. This doesn’t only ring true for executives, Dave. It rings true for even young professionals going into the business. One of the things I write in my new client introduction letter is that I like to stay focused on the young generation coming into the business. A lot of them are very idealistic, but they also have learned much more than we did when we were younger. They’re already concerned about the whys behind the whats.

The key is the Millennials who are coming in are looking less at making the money. The money’s important and you got to make the money. They want to buy houses and want to enjoy the benefits of what money can bring you. If it doesn’t align with their purpose, they’re not into it. The older executives leading this business are not aware of how important it is to publish a state and restate and build a vision around your company’s purpose and get the executives and the leaders, the managers within that.

My purpose, a company’s purpose is the sum total of an alignment. Everybody’s purpose is in there. We can name companies by name and you find those that have found a way to align with the values of their company. This is something that many executives nowadays need to wake up and realize, “How are you communicating the values of your company and of yourself?”

This is gold. This is the diamond in the rough stuff, Dave. This is important. What I do every single day is directly tied to what you’re saying. When I’m evaluating a candidate and asking them questions, I’m already thinking about the organization’s culture because the company needs to have a culture. They need to have an identity.

I did want to go back to something you said about money, and I want to be crystal clear on this. This is one of these let’s be completely transparent messages here. Money is important and it’s not necessarily the most important, but it typically is. If it’s not the most important, it’s right up there with culture and identity. What happens a lot is that some people reduce their focus on money, which sometimes doesn’t enable them to get the right talent because you have to address it.

 

You’re talking about the hiring company. The company that’s hiring, they say, “We’re more about values than the money.”

It’s a trap because they’re trying to maybe save money or not focused on the right thing. They’re equally important. It’s something that I always try and stay focused and real. This person’s making X amount of dollars at this job. We’re going to hire him for this job. Unless we have X amount of dollars and we have all of the other things, maybe they’re going to complement the pain points that this person has. Now we’re getting towards an offer. If we have to overcome the objection of compensation, that’s sometimes a huge objection to overcome.

Especially when it comes to your side of the business where you’re recruiting and bringing someone in. Once someone is in a job, then they have the money, it is what it is, it’s one of those things that they take care of good people. Otherwise, people like you are going to be out talking to them and taking underpaid people out of their position and lining them with a better situation. You all run that risk with the people that we’re working with in our organization.

You keep the relationship going, you make sure you answer the whys behind the whats. You make sure that they know that they’re valued. It’s not only the value you want to have as an executive, but as an executive that is charged with the careers of other people. It’s important that you keep them close, going back to what I said about transparency and honesty and those are verbs, not nouns. Those are action items that keep people attached to you without using glue.

To keep business relationships going, make sure you answer the whys behind the whats. Share on X

Many of us get focused on the metrics of the performance side of it and can miss that. I certainly have struggled with that. Tony, I’m thinking of someone who’s sitting at the job reading this and they’re going, “This does not align with me. What do I do about this?” Do I pick up the phone and call you? Do I take risks? Isn’t it scary? How do you speak to the person who is saying, “I don’t know that I’m aligned both from the why and I’m being underpaid?” How do you advise people to start thinking about their future?

The first word that comes to mind, David, is trust. When you’re in that situation, changing jobs is very difficult. The most important thing is to communicate with people that you trust. You’re always a couple of degrees of separation. You and I do very similar things. You’re a couple of degrees away from getting somebody you can talk through this with on the phone.

When I say trust, it’s going to be a recommendation. You recommend people to me all the time. When I get them on the phone, there’s trust already established. That’s the first and foremost, the most important thing. Find someone that you can talk with. There’s a lot of great recruiters out there and there’s a lot of folks that are transparent, do care, and will give you the time to talk through things with you.

It’s not always attached to the dollar. As a matter of fact, almost in every conversation I have, I say that exact thing. It’s not all about the money for me. If I can eventually get a fee from the nature of our relationship, awesome, but that’s not what it’s about. It’s about having a conversation and helping somebody. A lot of my day is spent in conversations like this.

If you’re that executive sitting at the desk, you need to go to somebody that you trust to start a conversation. You need to talk to people. We’re wired for a relationship. We’re born knitted in our mother’s womb for relationships and to spend time with people. The worst thing someone in that position can do, Dave, is isolate. If you isolate, you start doing calculations in your head and at night you’re thinking about things until you get sick and you’re not talking to somebody, I would say that’s number one.

There’s a fork in the road because there’s who you talk to too. I like something that Marcia Davies said in an interview I did. People are like elevators. They’re either going to take you up or they’re going to take you down. I think it’s who you’re talking to that makes such a difference. I’m sure Marcia is quoting someone else, but that’s who I heard say that statement. I love that statement.

People get on the phone with you and they’ll commiserate with you.

That’s not helping you.

It’s like the story of the chicken and the pig. Have you ever heard that one?

No.

The chicken and the pig is a good one. There’s a farmer who grew up in South Carolina. He had chickens and pigs and the chicken coop was right next to the pig pen. The pigs got all bent out of shape because the chickens, every day, were running around. They’re cackling, they’re commiserating with each other, they’re complaining. The pig says to the chicken one day, “Chicken, what are you doing?” Chicken says, “We got to run around all day. We got to do this and we got to make a contribution to breakfast every single day.” The pig says, “Let me understand this correctly. You’re complaining about running around and making a contribution to breakfast? Let me explain something to you, chicken. I am breakfast.”

It’s so important to focus on who you’re talking to and it’s so important to get that. That’s a great place to launch off into how can people reach you to talk with you.

My website’s AffinityFive.com and I’m on LinkedIn. I spend the majority of my day on LinkedIn. You can connect me through on LinkedIn. Either one of those two places is great. We can leave my phone number and email on here. It’s (904) 395-3515. My email address is Tony.Caico@AffinityFive.com.

I encourage you to get ahold of Tony about the different situations we’re working with and clients and the wisdom that comes out of him as he looks at it. It’s not someone who tells you what you need to do. It’s the person that asks the right questions. Tony, the thing you’re most famous for is asking the right questions of both the hiring company and the potential person being hired. It’s awesome.

Thank you, Dave.

I appreciate you. Tony, thank you so much for being here with me. I appreciate you value what you do, what you’re doing for the industry, and what you’ve done for the lives of many. I’m sure you’re going to be doing a lot more of that in the future. Get a hold of Tony Caico. Talk to him about your career. Find out what’s going on. Hiring managers, if you’re struggling, why don’t you pick up the phone call Tony? He’ll help you sort through what you’re doing or not doing to keep the talent that you have because if you don’t, someone else will. Tony, thanks so much. Talk to you soon.

Thanks, Dave.

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I enjoyed that interview. That’s the third time I’ve listened to the story of the chicken and the pig. “I am breakfast.” You realize how we look at things so differently. There are a number of points that Tony made in there. It’s the only one thing I would say that I am noticing, especially with Millennials. I’m thinking of one particular company that lost a top executive. It was an up-and-comer in the executive world, and this individual got promoted quickly for the organization and they were always worried about losing her and didn’t want to lose her. Guess what? They lost her.

Do you know why? It wasn’t about the money in that case. That’s one thing I’d say. It is about the money until it isn’t about the money. You say, “What do you mean by that, Dave?” That’s where I’m finding Millennials and Gen Z-ers, for sure. As you see them come into the marketplace, they’re going to be more about the purpose, the why, the what, the how and why behind what you’re doing.

In this particular case, this executive left and took a cut in pay to go into a company that best aligned with their personality, with their why, and what they’re about. It spoke to me about how easy it is for us to miss on that. “I just gave you a raise. How could you be leaving?” “You’re not speaking to my why. I don’t feel there’s a good alignment.”

I tell you, there’s so much wisdom in that. I wrote down a ton of notes. We could get into all over that. What I tell you do go back and read again. It was one of those interviews that’s good. It’ll show up in the Hot Topic segment and it’ll also show up our regular episode because of the abbreviated nature. We’re grateful for you to be a reader and sharing this show with so many. You are valued and appreciated. Also, I’d love to get some feedback on the six types of working geniuses, the Birkman, what I said before we brought Tony on some of my comments there.

I’d love to hear from you on that. I look forward to having you back here next time. Be sure to share this show with others and tell others about the show. That’s how we’ve grown to. We have become the oldest. We certainly have become one of the more popular ones out there. We welcome all the others. Alec Hanson did a fabulous job in the interview. I was frustrated with how fast I spoke. Listen to it. I’d love to hear your feedback.

I called Alec. I said, “Did you speed that thing up?” He goes, “No, Lykken. We did not speed that up. You were on fire.” Anyway, I appreciate you all out there working and making efforts to improve the lives of those around you. Hopefully, you’re doing it in such a way that you keep all the talent you have. If not, call Tony Caico. He’ll help you realize what you could need to change. I’ll talk to you soon. Have a great one.

 

Important Links

• Alec Hanson – Modern Lending Podcast episode with David Lykken
• Affinity Five
• Mortgage Bankers Association of America
• Finastra
• Lenders One
• Mortgage Collaborative
• Community Mortgage Lenders of America
• Insellerate
• Knowledge Coop
• Mobility MMI
• Modex
• Boundaries for Leaders
• My Back Nine
• Restoration by Water’s Edge
• Marcia Davies – Past Episode
• LinkedIn – Tony Caico
• Tony.Caico@AffinityFive.com