In this insightful episode, David Lykken welcomes back Pavan Agarwal of SunWest Mortgage for a deep dive into the evolving role of AI in the mortgage industry. As they explore Mustafa Suleyman’s book The Coming Wave, the discussion emphasizes how AI is set to disrupt and transform the sector, bringing unprecedented efficiencies while reducing costs. Pavan shares real-world examples of how Angel AI is revolutionizing mortgage processes, particularly underwriting, by leveraging AI to handle complex decision-making faster and more accurately than ever before. They also touch on AI’s broader implications, including its impact on jobs and the future of fair lending. The conversation underscores the potential of AI to enable mortgage professionals to focus on relationship-building, shifting away from repetitive tasks. Tune in to discover how this technology is reshaping the industry and helping businesses thrive in a rapidly changing environment.
[David] Listeners, I’m excited to have Pavan Agarwal back with us again. We’re talking about AI. Why are we talking about it so much? It’s coming. It’s coming like a wave that book that I talked to you all about. Those of you listen to me on the podcast. I’m referring to The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman. It’s a book that talks about just to the extent this is happening. If you sit and think abot tsunami wave, we all see what those do, those bring massive destruction. This is bringing massive disruption but transformation, that’s going to be really good for our industry. What’s the biggest issue that we have in our industry, the cost to produce alone, still over $12,000. It’s unattainable and there’s new solutions and that’s what Pavan has created with Angel AI. Pavan, good to have you back on the podcast. I got a lot of things I want to talk to you about today. Really looking forward to getting into those. [Pavan] I like the wave metaphor because that is one of the reasons we support several top top world champion surfers. So check out my Instagram feed, some really great content, fun to watch these kids. There’s just so many. [David] I love the fact that you’re supporting the kids and athletics and as you do, the one that you sent, we’ll put a clip in it in our show notes here so you can go listen to it she’s just a delightful I’ve met a number of the people there at your home at the Diwali party and I was so impressed with them. Kudos to you for doing that in skateboarding, and surfing and other areas. And then you have the big names like Shane Mosley that you get behind and support him and you’re also in the wide world of poker. There’s so many areas that you’re supporting. I applaud you for what you’re doing. But today we’re going to get into talking about what the complexity of underwriting is, where I want to start a little bit, then I want to go in and dispel a myth that this is going to wipe out all these jobs. And we’re going to talk about that, but let’s talk about the complexity of underwriting there in the book, The Coming Wave there is on page 53, it talks about a complex Asian East Asian game known as Go, and it is a very complex. It is exponentially more complex with many more configurations than chess does. And I’m reading from the book right here. He says that the board game. There are more potential configurations with the Go board game than there are atoms in the known universe. 1 million trillion trillion, trillion more configure. That’s a number that is staggering. Pavan. And it conquered it. It’s with the Alpha go. This is what they use, Mustafa built for Google, this system called AlphaGo and it beat that. I’m trying to build a parallel. If we have a game that is exponentially more complex than underwriting, although underwriting can be very complex, AI is solving it. So, let’s go into what is a reasonable expectation for where things are at now and where things are going from an underwriting standpoint, and then we’ll talk about the consequences or the effects of this. [David] So Pavan, let’s talk about AlphaGo, what Google created, this new system that played the game Go better than anybody else. How did that happen? [Pavan] AlphaGo with this Google software, I think it was released in 2016 and they released a paper on it. People think that’s new. Wow. We’re a huge AI breakthrough by Google, but the core of that algorithm, core of that software is something called a Monte Carlo decision tree and the center of that software, the AlphaGo AI software, That’s the name of that mechanism. Now here’s what will shock a lot of people. That was invented in 1942. [David] Wow. So it’s just applying it now. [Pavan] They applied it and of course it wasn’t used as is, over the years, in the last whatever, 80 years it’s been improved and expanded and expanded and then Google made their set of expansions to that algorithm to that software, right? and the thing is, like in 1942, the computers were very expensive and slow, right? Nothing like, so you couldn’t do with Monte Carlo in 1942 what you can do with it today, right? it goes back to what I was saying before. AI isn’t really new, right? It’s just that the computer memory and computer processing speed is so fast that we can actually take advantage of it. So the way this thing works when the other player makes a move, now this Monte Carlo decision tree, what it does is that it goes down and looks at all the possible or the most likely possible paths, moves that it could make, and in real time, in memory, it tests those paths, and this says, and it learns from the testing process and updates the decision weights and then makes this move as to what’s the best decision. Because you make one move and then you have to go all the different possibilities. So that’s the idea, it’s the same thing like with loan underwriting, you make a move you request for a pay stub. The other player makes a move, gives you a pay stub. Now that pay stub could have a wage garnishment on it. It could have increase or decrease in overtime. You could have a change in title, right? There’s so many moves that could have happen next, right? You have to anticipate all those moves and look forward in those possible moves and based on that, make your next move. And you got to make the next move that you make, what you ask for next has to be the most optimal move. In your case, winning the game is getting the loan closed as few requests as possible from the customer while meeting all the agency guidelines, I estimate, at least for each move that happens on the game board of a loan is at least 10 to the power of a thousand, if not more, which is more than the number of atoms in the galaxy and I think the guys , the research of AlphaGo is saying each move is more than the number of atoms in the universe, but whatever. Who cares? It’s a big number, right? So there’s this huge number of possible moves that can happen with every move on a loan file by a move, meaning you make a decision to do something, or the customer makes a decision to do something or a life event happens to the customer during the loan process, and so the best AlphaGo player is analogous to the best loan officers. Human beings don’t have this high speed computation. We don’t see all the different we don’t have the ability to go down and trace all the different paths. We see it intuitively, and our brains work at a different level. We see it differently and we find the best path. That’s why a master loan officer It’s like a master alpha go player. They can find the best path and they do it quickly and do it intuitively. But now a computer can find the best path, right? It can be trained to find the best path and it’ll find paths that even the best player or the best loan officer has not thought about because it’s trained on. You, as the best loan officer, you’re trained on your life experience. The computer screen on the life experience of a thousand, 10,000, a hundred thousand loan officers. [David] Alpha Go system that they talked about watched 150,000 games being played. It took in all those scenarios in there and then now that’s analogous to all the loans you have been doing at SunWest. You have been working those hundreds of thousands of loans that you’ve done already and building Angel AI with that knowledge in there. [Pavan] Correct. From Angel, [David] You’re learning from it probably. It’s more than just in there. It’s you’re learning from it now. [Pavan] Yes, correct. So, from the day Angel AI went live, which is in 2018, 2019 to today, over 200,000 loans have gone through it. Again, very similar to the AlphaGo training process. But before that, it was trained on all the loans that we’ve done in the past 40 years leading up to that. It’s literally been trained probably on over a million loans. It has seen what has happened on a loan file from the worst loan officers to the best loan officers. It’s got all of that intelligence in there, it can see paths that are superhuman. It has sight beyond superhuman abilities, right? And so it’s going to find paths that there’s no way any one human can ever do, so why fight that? Why try to be smarter than that? It’s not about being smart, it has computing power, it can test out paths in this calculator that you can’t do. [David] That’s where you start getting the power of this and that’s why a lot of same people that are introducing, they’re saying they’re coming up with AI. Listeners, you’ve got to look at this. There’s people using AI like salt and pepper something on a steak. It’s not the steak. What you have been doing Pavan, has been bringing thousands and thousands, hundreds of thousands of loans into the process. Very exciting. [Pavan] Yeah, so let’s talk about Go a little bit and Google came out something called AlphaGo a few years back and that beat the current Go world champion. And this is a direct correlation with the industry. Here’s the thing. The headline that was made that AI beat the world champion and then if you read about him. He says he was very depressed afterwards that he lost to the computer But then after he got over that he went and looked at how the computer played the game and he learned as a human being found new insight into the game and now he’s a better player than ever before. [David] That is such a good point. I’m so glad you brought that out because we are creatures of habit. We approach anything we do, whether it be mortgage underwriting or processing, you name anything we do in our homes, our professions, or personally, we approach it in the same patterns that we’ve learned. But when you get into AI and you get into complexity things, it discovers new ways in which to go about it and that’s what we again, one of the many benefits of AI. One of those, you talk about fair lending is something you’re very passionate about is creating a fair lending model for everyone. So, we take out all biases. We’ve approached it the way it has been and you talk a lot about in previous videos that we’ve done, how large language models have been loaded up with previous data and what was done. And it loaded unwittingly a bias that went into it. And sure enough, guess what? That bias showed up. [Pavan] Yeah. So let me give you a simple example of a bias in ChatGPT and ChatGPT, don’t get me wrong. Amazing. Ridiculously complex and incredible technology. But you want to use the right tool for the right job. Okay. Yes. And so, because LLMs are based on repeating previous patterns, right? A pattern that appears more often in this training data set is what it’s going to repeat in the answers it gives you. For example, if you know the Texas regulations, you know that in Texas, you cannot do a cash out refi on an FHA loan. And that is the one exception in the entire country of all the states and union territories. It’s the only place you can’t do it. So, now that the LLMs are trained on patterns. the pattern is if you can do an FHA cash or refi? The only pattern is yes. At the one small exception of Texas. The reinforcement learning has been reinforced 49 plus three or four other territories. 53 times has been reinforced that you can do it. When you ask the question for Texas, it says, yes. When it should say no. [David] Great point. One thing that’s really point on about this listeners is we’re using ChatGPT increasingly more in what we’re doing, but we need to realize this one point it’s looking at it, not from a pure deep knowledge standpoint about the nuances, like in the case of this, refinancing in Texas on an FHA basis. That is really great point you’re bringing up. [Pavan] Yeah, can it be fixed? Can a large language model be fixed? Absolutely. You have to do more reinforcement training that gives it higher weight for that piece of data that Texas cannot do it, but that is, if anyone who’s ever tried to train an LLM knows how expensive and difficult that process is, right? It’s a very expensive power consumption and GPU process. That’s why, ChatGPT is something like they need to raise another $30billion in the next 60 days or they run out of money. That’s how much money they’re burning through, just keeping these GPUs running. [David] Wow, I did not realize that. [Pavan] I think Elon Musk is talking about, he needs to build for his new farm of GPUs. He needs to build a power plant just for the farm. It’s enough for an entire city for his one farm of GPUs, right? There’s talk about using the latest Lockheed Martin created the small nuclear power plant where you can get basically a nuclear power plant in something the size of a Volkswagen bug, right? And it’s essentially the same technology of nuclear submarines. You can now park in front of your house and you have a nuclear power plant. This little thing the size of a Volkswagen bug can power an entire city. They’re now talking about data centers with his own little nuclear power plant which is a very safe technology. You can’t have a Chernobyl site meltdown in something like that. Nuclear submarines don’t have meltdowns, right? There’s never been a Chernobyl incident with a nuclear submarine. I think part of it is that as a society, the whole Chernobyl incident, and the one in Japan, we’re like so afraid of nuclear power, right? But you can’t just do cart blank, say, let’s fear the technology and then guess what, when you just do a cart blank for your based policy decision making, we all pay for it, right? Because we’re paying for higher power bills and cost of everything going up, right? and we’re seeing the effect of fear based policy where we just, okay, we’re afraid of oil. We’re afraid of nuclear. We’re afraid of coal. We’re afraid of everything, and we’re not going into a debate over global warming. That’s not what this is about, right? There’s a lot of scientific evidence on all of this, but the point is that if you fear everything and stop everything and then only put money into the most expensive ways of producing energy guess what? Your pricing is going to go through the roof, right? And there are other options like hydrogen, like nuclear that can actually solve these problems, and I know hydrogen. Elon Musk would be screaming at me right now for mentioning hydrogen, but hydrogen is not necessarily the right thing to power cars yet, unless we get the storage and fuel cell technology where it needs to be. But for power plants, it could be an incredible asset because I think I read about six months ago there was a discovery of natural hydrogen. The U. S. is the largest reservoir of natural hydrogen underground. Think about that, you basically mine the hydrogen, and burn it. You burn hydrogen, you get water, right? There’s no other side effect other than water and you can power the whole country with it. It’s got enough hydrogen, the power of America. [David] That’s what comes out in this book, The Coming Wave. There’s so many exciting benefits that are coming for the new technologies out there. One of the fears that is out there though, Pavan, and it does talk about this, is the number of jobs it’s going to eliminate and it’s the hourly jobs, a lot of the low wage hourly jobs and there’s already solutions that they’re talking about, universal based income is one of the solutions for that. But here’s the reality that you brought out in a conversation we had yesterday. Is the mortgage industry has already done all the layoffs. We’re now facing another challenge and as volume starts ramping up, we’re seeing a nice drop in the 10 year again, today, when we’re recording this on September 6th we’re seeing a nice rally. So, we’re seeing interest rates continue to drop. We saw the job, those numbers coming in. There’s now more thought that we may see the lower interest rates, even further more rates going lower, that’s going to bring us to a place where we’re going to have to build up our capacity within the industry again and what that’s going to cause is either you’re going to go through it by going out and hiring a whole lot more people and sustaining the problem of our higher costs, or we’re going to look at other solutions. So, number one, when you think of the mortgage industry listeners, AI is going to help us do more with less people. What is your vision for that? Pavan? How do you see this manifesting? [Pavan] Yeah. People are so scared about AI going to destroy all the jobs in the mortgage industry, but you know what? The fed beat AI to it. Terrible. It destroyed the mortgage industry in the last three years. Right now, most, especially independent mortgage bankers, they have cut all the way into the bone. [David] They’ve got into the bone. Yeah, they’ve got past fat into the muscle into the bone. Yep. [Pavan] And now with the 10 year rallying, You’ve gone from dying of thirst in the desert to drowning in the middle of Lake Superior, right? and you cannot re ramp up your operations this quickly and people, so many underwriters, processors and just different people have completely left the industry and started new professions. It is an AI that has taken away the jobs, right? [David] The markets have taken away the job market already took it away, the jobs. And now we’re trying to figure out how to scale back up. [Pavan] It’s actually AI to the rescue because now you have all of these homeowners who need to take advantage of the lower rates, right? and we have a real service that we need to perform, okay? and with mortgage bankers and brokers not having the staff to support all those people, guess who’s going to pay for it in the end? It’s going to be the consumers, right? Now, this is where AI is solving that problem. You can literally double, triple, tenfold your volume overnight and not need to add a single extra person. Let that sink in for a minute. [David] That is pretty profound, especially with what we’re facing here with the need to build up. How is that going to be accomplished? You’re talking to executives. We’ve got a wide range of listeners from loan originators all the way through to number of executives and a lot of ops people listening to this. How would you advise them to start navigating this? [Pavan] Let me tell first a little bit about what we’re actually doing and how it’s working and I think the answer to your question will become clear from it. As we rolled out Angel AI for the last four or five years, what we did was it almost entirely eliminated closing, underwriting and loan processing. And what we did was retrain those team members into customer relationship building, into marketing, into communication and teaching them skills and how to run a presentation. People who are always behind a computer, or behind a phone. It’s very different from that to being on stage and talking to a group of people or being in a conference room and presenting something. So those were skills that we spent a lot of time. We teach and coach them. And now their personalities have blossomed. Forget the fact that learning skills is now people went out of the comfort zone and they’re doing something that they never thought they could do before and they’re so grateful for the opportunity and for the training and the coaching and it sparked something inside them. This has sparked a flame. They had put themselves in a box in a lane and they thought that was their lane for their life. And now that they’ve tried these new things and they’re succeeding at it, they’ve had the coaching and the help along the way. Now they see that nothing is beyond reach, God didn’t put me on this planet to just do one thing. As scary as that transition may have felt as intimidating that it would have been. It turns out that it was a blessing to, Hey, let’s go try something new. [David] I think you start thinking about all the changes that have come. Every time we’ve had an advancement in technology, when we went from the horse and buggy to the vehicles, we went from powered man flight airplanes. And we’ve seen all, every one of these has had a transformative effect. Some things went away that we used to do, and now we’re into a much better place. Every one of these have really put us in a better place as far as quality of life, our productivity and the thing that you just hit on, which I think is really important is we’re in back to being people in files, going through files and analyzing all this data, there’s a quant factor. There’s those that just enjoy looking at that, but the human element is what is so important. AI is growing in its ability to read emotions, but will it ever replace the human from a communicating from an emotional standpoint? [Pavan] To that point, we weren’t put on this planet, right? A million years ago, our ancestors were not sitting in the forest reading paperwork, right? We were social animals and we interact with each other. We build communities and we go hunt and gather and whatever. And we build, right? We are designed to build, right? So, this 100 years of this sort of administrative work. This is an unnatural state of our bodies and our mind, right? We’re supposed to be out interacting, building, interconnecting and thinking about new ideas. That is what humanity means. That’s what being human means. Somehow this industrial illusion based classroom education, which was the industrial evolution, the oligarchs at that time, they were just wanted to fill up their factories with obedient labor and that sort of was what our education system has become. And AI has put a lens on that, a focus on it saying, no, wait a minute. First of all, that’s not the natural human state. It’s not natural for a child to sit behind a desk. Eight hours a day, right? All you’re doing is you’re training them to go from there to sit inside a factory eight hours a day, right? And do redundant work over and over again, right? We are creative, inspirational, magical beings, and we need to be out and about, and building and creating and thinking. First of all, it’s the commentary on our education system. This is a relic of the 19th century. It has to be thrown away. We have to get our kids out moving, interacting, building, right? Not grinding in front of a desk or a computer. [David] It’s going to set so many kids free and give them a new future. And when I was going to school, it was torture. It was pure torture because of the way I’m wired. And so it’s such a good point. I want to go back to the point where you saying, as you found AI eliminating some jobs, you chose to retool the folks that their job is replaced by AI. You retooled them into relationship. The relationship side of the business. Talk more about that because I think this is the vision people need to get as they contemplate the changes that are coming. [Pavan] We took underwriters, closers, loan processors and we paired them up with our senior salespeople and they went and started visiting clients and started going to trade shows and all these that started. And a lot of people were behind the computer all the time, sending emails and things, but never on the front line. We put them on the front end and that process also, they get a whole new appreciation and respect for the business, and new appreciation and respect for the customer, they get a better understanding of what homeowners go through, right? So, it changed their whole perspective, right?. That was the process is we paired them up and had them work directly with clients and customers and basically initially as like sales support, sales attache and now many of them have just flourished and are now independently out and part of our sales force. [David] That’s amazing. So one of the things that I’m going to encourage you to do listeners to start realizing we’re going into taking humans, doing what humans do best, and that’s the relational side of our business and we need to get find training programs. We need to be able to retool our people to be able to do that, our teams. And that’s what comes natural to us. Like you said, we are relational. We’re designed to be in community and relationship with each other and the mortgage transaction is one of the most complex and one of the most challenging. When you sit and think you’re taking on a risk of a huge debt, the largest debt of anyone has ever taken on, there is more need for reassurance of that person making the right choice and explaining that and walking them through. [Pavan] Exactly. I like to think about an AI that can do your mortgages end to end, which is what we do at Angel AI. That’s a two-minute plug for angel AI, it is as challenging, if not more challenging than Tesla making the self-driving car. They said that their self driving car would be ready, what, three years ago, four years ago? And here we are, now they’re saying another two years, right? Because if you’re driving from here to the bank to get your money, right? Think of all the different things that could happen, right? That you as a driver need to pay attention to, a dog can run across in front of you or a kid or, there could be road construction or a pothole and all of these obstacles and challenges could come and that’s why you need a human driver to steer that car. A self-driving car or self-driving AI driving your mortgage through all those obstacles through the finish line which is the pile of money at the end of that road the pot of gold at the end of that road to get that pot of gold which is your funding your disbursement, right? It’s got to navigate through all those obstacles and at least in a car it’s a little bit easier because there’s one road, right? And at least you know where the borders of the road are. In a mortgage, you get an obstacle, you get a new pay stub with the reduced overtime. There’s a hundred different roads you could take. You have to now decide which path you need to go based on this new obstacle that came. This new movement. If you think of this as a Go Board, a move just happened by the player, in this case is the universe, is the situation, a move just happened that now opens up a hundred, maybe a thousand different moves that you can take to get around that new obstacle, right? Imagine if you’re driving your car that every 10 feet. 100 new ways you could turn your car and a hundred new roads come up and you got to figure out which is the right road to get to your destination. That’s what Angel AI does, right? Every time a new option comes up, it goes and figures out what the right path is and then makes that turn. [David] Going back to the game Go, what you said about that was really insightful. It taught the master after you’ve got beat seriously beat not once, but I think it was three times, he got depressed and then he goes, wait a minute. Maybe I should go learn why this system was able to do that and it made him a better player. I think these systems are going to what angel AI is doing AI generally is going to make us and raise our game. If we will get out of fear about it, number one, and start looking at what is it doing? That’s I missed. And I think that is some of the advantages that we’re going to get from this. [Pavan] That’s right. Even better, whatever is doing, let it do that, that’s something I don’t have to do right now I can focus on the customer, right? because what do you are missing? Every loan officer, what you are missing right now, but you’re not doing is spending more time connecting with your client whether that’s the consumer or whether that’s the realtor, so that they remember your brand as the dependable, reliable honest brand that they need to be partnered with. Every loan officer, I guarantee you, you do not spend enough time doing that and that’s what you are missing. That’s the move that you’re supposed to be taking that you’re not taking. [David] That’s a really good point to launch off to what you just told me earlier today about an event that happened in Dallas. I believe that was yesterday and the difference it is making with realtors, which I get really excited about. Talk about that and how these realtors are saying, this has changed my life. Jennifer Martinez talks about this. She’s over Cross Country. She does extremely well. This is a tool that’s enabling her to do more loans, but talk about that one testimony that came out from that one realtor and how Angel AI has done so much to be able to help exponentially grow his business. [Pavan] The whole point of Angel AI, it’s an open platform. It’s not open source, but it’s open access platform. Like Linux, which everyone laughed at Linux 30 years ago, they said what do you mean open platform? And now look at it 30 years later, everything runs Linux, whether this microphone, this camera, the computer, everything is running Linux. You just don’t know it. That’s why I made an open platform and as a result, realtors freely using it and using its incredible capabilities. One realtor came to the show dressed, right? He’s a customer of Angel AI. He came to the event. It was not our event. It was our very good host and buddy, Vince Valvo at AMBiz for National Mortgage Professional. One of his events that we were at, and the realtor came dressed head to toe in Angel AI gear with his cap and shirt and everything. And he was out there when we were doing our presentation, he was cheering us on. And then he came and he gave us the testimonial and he’s uploaded my own database of 30,000 contacts and Angel called and connected with all those 30,000 people and I got a ton of business out of it. And you all did it for me at no cost and my business has exploded. He’s basically telling I’ll do anything for you. How can I do to help angel AI? Because you helped me so much, right? [David] That’s what I’m trying to get our listeners to see it’s coming. We’re going to see artificial intelligence come in and play a bigger role. But what are you doing about that? and what’s your attitude about it? That’s really why we’re coming on with Pavan as often as we are to help you start making the adjustment. First of all, have the realization it is coming. The new wave of technology is coming and it’s going to change the way we do business. The second thing is you need to start moving towards our thinking relationship less task oriented. The task oriented jobs are going to be done more and more by AI. Then what you do is how do we then do our tasks in this particular case? I want to dive in that story a little bit more because I don’t think you covered it quite well. So, if you don’t mind me just going a little bit deeper, you have created with angel AI, the ability for a realtor, this case, he had 30,000 people that he has built a database of some over some period of time, and he loaded those into angel AI and talk of what happened next, why he got so excited. You went through that pretty quickly. [Pavan] It’s a built in feature of angel AI. Anyone can use it. You take your old past client list or anyone you’ve ever met, you can give it to Angel AI give her the contact information and she will actually call every single person on that list. And it’s not a robocall. It’s not an AI calling. It’s actually we have bilingual. We call them Angelistas. We have bilingual people who are AI powered and they’re incredibly fast because the AI controls the whole process of them calling and what to say and everything. And so we have bilingual people that they will call every single person and we get like a million uploads a month or something. It’s just some crazy number of calls we make every month and she will call every single person and we’ll also e blast them. And they will set appointments and do hot transfers directly to you and we’ve had realtors use this to get appointments set and I get messages all the time, like I uploaded a couple hundred of these and I got a listing out of it or I got a new buyer out of it, right? And that’s why when you look on social media and look at some of the people that are posting, you’ll see realtors are actually creating listings, videos that taking listing appointments wearing Angel AI gear. Because not only does Angel AI get them leads and close and help them set up appointments. But they would prefer to be part of the angel AI ecosystem and brand, because when they’re in front of a buyer, it’s far more interesting and it helps them sell and close that buyer that they are connected with Angel AI and that gives a level of assurance and a level of cutting edge leadership that they can present to their customers, especially these days, with the buyers and commission eliminated. The buyer’s agents really need this because they can go into angel AI and have in a second all the answers that a buyer could ever ask them without playing phone tag with their loan officer and they have the confidence of being able to give the right answers to their buyer and that’s how they’re winning over. The buyer’s gotta sign this contract now that they never had to do before. They gotta sign this contract, committing to the 3% commission. But now you gotta show value and realtors are used to doing listings, very sophisticated listings presentations as a listing agent. Now they gotta do buyer’s presentation. And when a buyer’s presentation, you gotta say, what is your value? How are you different than everyone else? Angel AI is a big part of that presentation. Hey, you know what? It was Angel AI that called you and set up this appointment, right? And it’s Angel AI that I’m a partner of, that I can give you instantaneous response and accurate and the best part about Angel AI response, it doesn’t get questions like, can you do a cash out refi in Texas wrong. Every single time it gets right. And if it got it wrong, I have a warranty on it that I’ll put my money 100% behind that answer. [David] When you say a warranty, you mean you will fund that loan? [Pavan] I will. Yes. Whatever Angel AI told you to do, and if you did and you submitted the loan through Angel AI. I will fund it, even if it got it wrong. So if Angel, I told you can do a FHA cash out in Texas and you can’t and you send that loan to us, I’ll honor whatever Angel AI said and I’ll fund it. That’s a loan FHA cash out in Texas is a big problem because you can’t even enforce that. [David] You can’t. Yeah. Don’t kidding. That’s one you’ll hold on the books forever. [Pavan] Good luck. Hopefully you even get paid back. [David] Yeah, that’s so true. But this is so fascinating. What is the timeframe it’s going to take for this to come fully realized to come forward and be fully realized in your test? You’ve been working on this for a long time. [Pavan] It is fully realized. In July, I have to check the August numbers. July, we had something like 1700 or 1800 new users to the platform, added on, new accounts created. Most of those were realtors. It is going like wildfire with realtors because especially with this new NAR lawsuit settlement, they need this tool like never before so that they can number one get top of the funnel leads, get appointments set. Number two, close those appointments and convert them to business. Just word of mouth. I’m not advertising. I don’t have the ads going out to realtors right now, but it’s there and I look at this, close to 2,000 new realtors signing up, like, where are they coming from? It’s all word of mouth. [David] Yeah. It’s amazing. It’s outstanding. Thanks so much for taking time and laying out the vision again, more talking about some of the issues that are concerning to people. It’s very important that we realize we’re moving into doing what we can do best, what we’re designed to do best. And that is be relational and all the other things that distract from being relational are more and more fulfilled by angel AI. That’s amazing. [Pavan] Thank you, David.Important Links
Pavan Agarwal is a renowned leader in the mortgage lending industry and a pioneer in bringing artificial intelligence to the financial markets. Agarwal serves as the President and CEO of Sun West Mortgage Company and Celligence International, LLC.