In this episode of
Lykken on Lending, David Lykken welcomes Pam Faulkner, Director of Professional Services at nCino, back for a deep dive into the challenges and opportunities of change management in the mortgage industry. With over 40 years of experience, Pam shares her insights from their recent presentation at nCino's Executive Forum, where they discussed the accelerating impact of AI, automation, and how technology can enhance efficiency. They explore how companies can adapt to the evolving market, overcome resistance to change, and use tools like AI and OCR to stay competitive. Pam’s unique perspective offers valuable lessons for mortgage professionals on navigating organizational change and embracing innovation.
[David] Listeners, I'm excited to have a good friend come on the podcast. Pam Faulkner, she's the director of professional services at nCino. I've known her for a long time. We've had the privilege of recently presenting at nCino's Executive Forum, but I've also had her as a guest on the podcast many years ago and it's good to have you back, Pam. How are you doing?
[Pam] I am doing great. I love being back. I loved our time last week. Oh my gosh, that was so much fun.
[David] That was so much fun, there's a yin and yang where you get to gather with someone on stage and ours works. It just works. There's great chemistry and I'm looking forward to sharing that what we talked about because change management, organizational change is such an important topic as we look at the markets we're in right now, Pam and with you playing a key role as Director of Professional Services, I think you have a unique perspective on that. But let's start with you in your role. Give us a little bit of your background for those that do not know you. People need to get to know you. Everyone who's listening, get to know Pam Faulkner. She is a delight and a joy to get to know, wonderful human being and a true mortgage professional that you'll be glad to be a network with, but tell us a little bit about your background, how you got to where you're at today and what the heck does a director of professional services do at nCino?
[Pam] I still ask myself that same question. No, honestly, we talked about this last week when we were altogether, I think the big thing was how long have we been in the mortgage industry? This is tracking on, I'm going into my 40th year. We laughed about that last week, but I always wanted to be that person. I remember when, I remember being a processor watching that head underwriter going, spouting things off like that. I wanted to do that. Lo and behold, 39 plus years later, I am that person. I've processed, I've underwritten, I've been a loan officer, I've closed. A little bit of secondary. All you secondary folks, I bow to all of you because that is just not my forte and then I jumped to the technology side of January of 2000 and I haven't looked back since. How does that tie into what I do now? I've trained, I've implemented, I've consulted, I've done all these things and I roll it all together here with nCino now and being over professional services. We're like that trusted advisor. You sign a contract with us. We're here to help you get through the hurdles. Make sure that the point of sale is set up. Oh, you got compensation too? We got experts on that as well. You want to do some analytics? We got people for that too.
[David] Yeah. You guys bought LBA where Lori Brewer dear friend and a comp and safe is a really great product she developed, you recognize that, nCino recognize that. SimpleNexus recognize it, bought it and then SimpleNexus of course, acquired nCino. There was just so many rapid acquisitions there for a period of time. Now, are you guys branded under SimpleNexus or are you moving more toward the brand of nCino? are you not, am I correct?
[Pam] You would recognize us as we are nCino. I always like to refer us as the US Mortgage Division of nCino. As we know, our global offices, they do mortgages as well overseas, just a little bit differently than how we do them here in the states. But we are nCino. Customers still call us Simple Nexus. They still call us LBA where we know who we are.
[David] Yeah. We know you are at the same products, safe services that continue to just get better and better. One of the things we talked about last week and by the way, we were with some pretty impressive users there. Talk a little bit about the audience that you and I presented to. We'll talk about some of the takeaways from that at the end, but again, talk a little bit about the audience and what was the purpose of this event? I think it was outstanding to bring the executives together, but what was the purpose?
[Pam] The purpose was is to actually bring our customers together and talk about what's happening in the industry today. What are their concerns? Where are they trying to get to? What's the leading technology that they're looking for us to enhance our software with and actually get them to the next level of where they need to be? Taking pieces, parts, as our system is really a great model to be a hub for a lot of these integrations that we do. Want verifications? We can hub to that. Want credit? We can hub to that. Pulling all of that together to make them more fluid in what they're doing, more efficient in what they're doing. And I think having these folks, we had independent mortgage bankers, we had banks, we had credit unions. I loved how everybody sat around, they communicated, they collaborated, they joked with one another, they made new friends. Some of them didn't know each other, some of them have known each other forever.
[David] The collaboration that I witnessed during our presentation, we took a break. We talked for 30 minutes. Tables talked amongst each other, and then we got to walk and mill around those tables. It's fun just listening to the collaboration, the friendships that are forming there. Let's get into some of the things we talked about there, because I think change management is such a critical thing, especially when the market is evolving. From nCino's perspective, how rapidly is this change accelerating? It seems like it's just nonstop, almost blurry rate.
[Pam] I think the way that you and I presented it last week and what we talked about was, where are things headed. You and I both acknowledge that AI is one of the bigger topics that everyone's looking at. We laughed because you and I both shared the analogy of Cortez burning the boat and our change management department actually uses that quite a bit and for those of you listening, Cortez did his Spanish expedition, goes off to the new world. His folks really wanted to go back. The things weren't there and so he had his men go out and they burned the boat. They had to stay there and actually adopt what was in front of them and I think that's what you and I were talking about the most last week.
[David] That's a scary thing when you start making a transition and you start getting the pushback from your staff and the fact that you do have to have that commitment to burn the boats, you're not, we're not going back. We're not going back to those old ways and I think when you look at something like AI there's also a fear. I use some examples when we were talking about many things where there's been a transformation and it's oftentimes a company that invents the innovation are the ones that fail to their own innovation. Example, Kodak invented a digital photography. It was digital photography by someone else that took out Kodak. You look at Nokia, Nokia was actually one of the companies. There are many working with touch screen, but they actually had developed that but it was not them creating an iPhone type phone. It was Apple creating an iPhone. And so again, another company, a competitor took them out because they failed to use their own innovation that had been developed in their own labs. Netflix, we talked about that, how Blockbuster had an opportunity. All of these changes that have taken place, we gave so many examples of those, and they're all fairly well known, but when you bring it down to, I have now got to implement a new solution, we have got to make a change in our organization, and that's a lot of what you do in your role, if I'm not mistaken.
[Pam] It is, one of the things that you and I, as we were walking around the tables, I picked up a lot of everyone is still talking about OCR technology and we laughed because the leaders in the room brought that up at more than one table and even in our discussion, we've had OCR technology around for years. Some works, some's a real stinker, but when you look at that, It's 2024. We're still talking about OCR technology. We've not burnt the boat and adopted whatever was out there or we've not perfected it. Where are we missing the boat? AI. You and I were talking about that. It's not the fear of AI is coming. AI is here. You and I both acknowledge that we're doing it more and more in everyday things that we do. And it's here.
[David] It is. I think one of the examples that we talked about when we were together was there's a fear of automation. We look at the current dock worker strike that's going on. One of the things they're striking over is they don't want their jobs automated, which is just like idiotic as you can get. It's coming like a tidal wave. You're not going to stop it. We looked at the rains that hit the North Carolina mountains. It created a mudslide. There was nothing going to stop that going through and wiping out everything that was in its path. That's what's happening with automation and those companies that failed to recognize that change is upon us or those industries or those labor unions in the case of the dot workers changing upon what they should be striking for is, do we have adequate retraining of the jobs so as this innovation comes in and the replacement happens, are we taking care of our dock workers and redeploying them and getting them educated up? That should have been the proper focus. But fear rules. A lot of times we talk about fear being a great motivator, but it does not usually get us to the right result. It's getting to the point where we look at things in a positive standpoint, Pam, and I think you made some really great points on that. Communication is one of the biggest challenges. How we communicate on it.
[Pam] To that point, we were talking about, because when I was an underwriter underwriting is such a vast thing that you've got to sit there. Not only are you analyzing the borrower, but you're actually doing the property as well, too. When AUS came out, I can still remember underwriters around me, the fear of, I'm losing my job and for me, it was Yeah, that borrower that's got 75 LTV, maybe they've got 25 on the debt to income ratio. Oh, yeah. Look at this, they've got $10,000 in the bank. I don't have to underwrite that thing, send it on, I can focus on those that were self employed, maybe a little bit harder to craft into a certain slot. Okay. They didn't meet conventional, maybe they met FHA. So, I could be more creative. Yeah, I think this is a time that we have to look at everything around us and actually adopt what's happening
[David] I think especially as we start looking at the industry coming back where there's you know we're seeing a little improvement and we're recording this on October 15th and we're seeing a little bit of a rally interest rates have been going up pretty precipitous ever since they announced the half point cutting rates. So things have slowed down a bit, but we do anticipate things going back. We have so much pent up demand that we're going to get busier. I had another guest on a few programs ago that we recorded that made a really good point, Pam. He said that we're already reduced our staffs down. We're past the fat we're into the muscle and into the bone. We need technology so that we can use the teams that we have employed right now and get a lot more productivity to your point on the underwriting with you don't have to look at loans. If we can eliminate all these loans through as a result of AI, get all those loans off your desk and we go in to where the real or cognitive skills, the more analytics needs to go into it because of the various factors that play into it that may not be able to yet. adequately covered by AI. That's where we need to focus. And I think that's a real important shift. And that's what we're talking about change management, getting people realizing that where, what we're really talking about now is not replacing jobs as much as employing effectively those that have jobs today.
[Pam] Efficiencies. You and I've talked about that a number of times about what the efficiencies gain. I look at it, AI would be such a tremendous tool if we have those analytics for risk assessment, How many times do we have to sit there and wait for someone to actually go through, put an algorithm together, come up with a risk assessment? maybe in a couple of weeks we have it back. But what if AI could take that? and with the push of a button, all of a sudden, our risk assessment is sitting right in front of us along with our other documentation that we need, and we can move on so not just mortgage. I see this impacting banking as a whole across every avenue that we look at.
[David] I think one of the things that was fun when we were talking that I watched some expressions when you and I talked about from the platform, that change management starts with each individual. They have to manage what's changing in their job and then it goes out to their department then it goes out to the company. And I think it's so important to have a solid why. As to why are we doing this? Which I think people need to go back and examine their overall why they're in business. Making money is an important thing in your business. You better make money, but that's not the reason we're in business. That's a result of being in business and doing our business. The why we're in it is so important. I talked about a story when we were together about Michael Powell. He was in the audience. They're one of your users and I give him a shout out on the podcast. There was a particular time when I was coaching him and he really struggled with his business, he lost his passion for the business and I think it's so easy today with all the circumstances, the ups and downs and the things going on, we can lose our passion. But if we go back and re anchor our why Pam, I think we get to a much better place.
[Pam] To your point though, David, we've talked about, what that why is and we talked about the best way that we've seen effective managers lead into the why and talk about the pain points and why they were trying to solve them. How did they solve them? But we also talked about the best way to communicate it and you and I shared stories of how we've seen lenders be so creative across the panel where they did videos, the team talked up with the executives. The executives shared down to all the employees the why, we watched them do sales rallies. We've watched him do gatherings. We've watched them gamify it and we've watched it when everybody is involved and knows the why and knows the pain that we're solving and actually has a say in it. We've watched adoption just exponentially explode. It's just been like one of those shooting star in the sky and everything.
[David] When an organization has an anchoring why, all change management can pivot successfully around it or if they have the wrong why we could have it be a roadblock to it. And I think we talked about a number of aspects about some of the communications, some of the things that you walked away with when we talked about communication, that was that you thought was really impactful to the audience. What would you say from our presentation that you recall?
[Pam] The communication, we talked about various things. One of those is, not one size fits all and I think that was one of the biggest things I took away from that conversation is because we try to always look at it and this is the best practice as we know it. Best practice for everyone. Can that best practice actually be tweaked to fit this lender versus this lender? It can, but I think what you and I talked about the most was listening, using these two things on the side of our head here and actually paying attention.
[David] Yep. That's such a good point. One of the things we talked about was communication, Pam, and how important it is, you just brought out a great point. It's so important that we listen, but there's some other things. What are some of the other things that you thought we talked about that were really impactful?
[Pam] I love the fact about the six working genius. That was just incredible. Everybody took note. I love the fact that there's actually, what did you call it?
[David] Analysis. Yeah. It's an assessment what people could do and it's a $20 an assessment that I think every department, every company should have done. Now, sometimes you need someone like myself was trained in it to go in and interpret it, but it's so self explanatory. Let me run through it real quickly. What we ran through at the group right there. There are six working genius. If you write down the word widget, WIDGET. The W is stands for Wonderment. There is a gift or a genius of wonderment. This is someone who looks at a problem and they go, I wonder why we're doing it this way, they just wondered, these kinds of people can be viewed as really annoying because no, this is the way we do it, we don't need someone wondering about a different way, but that is a genius that people bring. The next one over was the genius of invention. This is someone who takes an idea and starts putting innovative technology or innovative solutions to it, and those two gifts together, those two geniuses, wonder and invention are known as the innovative gifts, those things that are creative gifts where we're creating something new, but every Pam, how many times have you seen really wild crazy ideas that should never have gotten launched, get launched. And you know why that is? It's the other one. It's the D it's the discernment. We need discernment. There's a genius of discernment. There's sometimes I talked about there's a time. Yes. This is a great idea. We need to do it. There's a no, this is a horrible idea. Don't do it and the third one is. This may be a good idea, but now is not the good time. Let's table this and maybe there's a different time. So that's a gift of discernment. Then there's the gift of genius of galvanization. That's the G in the word widget. And I'm building this out because we're doing a podcast verbally so we don't have the chance to put up slides like we're there and then the gift to galvanization and creating inertia when there is no inertia for a new idea. past. It's been in wondered. They've been invented. The discernment people have said, yeah, thumbs up, go forward. Now we need to create inertia. This is someone who creates ideas and gets people excited about something that's maybe never existed before, but at the end of the day and so those two ones in the middle are really the ones that are the activators. These are the ones that discern, is this a good thing? And then they get it in activation. But the last two, the E and the T are enablement or engagement are those two could be an interchange and the last word is Tenacity. These are the getter done folks. This is the folks that Pam we talked about and this assessment, in enablement or engaged, but these are people that take the idea, start really putting business plans and processes in place and make it happen and the tenacity folks are the ones that get it over to the finish line because every good idea, every new initiative has that resistance. Your thoughts on as we talked about those, Pam?
[Pam] It was so funny because people in the room started all of a sudden bucketing themselves into what they were and you looked at me and I said, oh, I'm tenacity.
[David] You are tenacity. Yeah.
[Pam] You know where there's a will, there's a way. Sometimes my way of getting it through is not always the greatest in the world, there's a will. I look back, David, you and I have laughed about because you and I have been in this industry forever, and I told you the story. I grew up on a typewriter. I didn't know how to do mortgages any other way. I do them on a phone now. Think about this. We're running around here with a mobile device connected to our head 90% of the time and I can do everything on it. As a matter of fact, I choose not to go to the grocery store. I order groceries and either have them delivered or go pick them up. I refuse to do anything unless it's automated.
[David] That just goes to show how far you have come. But one of the things is I think about your own personal journey, Pam, how did you make that quantum leap from the IBM Selectric or the old typewriter to the phone? what were some of the changes, some of the things that you had overcome along that journey?
[Pam] You think about, where everything goes and my brain has always been, there's got to be a simpler solution. There's got to be something easier. We are doing the same repetitive things over and over. Why? Why do we keep doing those?
[David] See, I think you have the gift. So one of the things this assessment, when someone takes this assessment, the six working geniuses, it puts you into three buckets and we have two, we have a working genius and that's what gives you life. When you're working genius. It gives you life. When you're working and you're working frustration, it's sucks the life out of you, and there's another one in the middle called your working competency. It doesn't give you life, but it doesn't suck the life outta you. In other words, you could do the job, but you don't really enjoy it. So each one of us have one or other. So when I hear you say, I always wonder, see, I know you're a get er done type person. You're a tenacious type person, but you also have the guest of wonderment. It's very possible. I haven't seen your assessment. I haven't seen you take it yet, that you have the genius of wonderment and tenacity. And what we could have is that's what the beautiful part and so many people said when we were walking around the room is we got to go take that assessment. I told the story of one of my clients who were frustrated owners. They all have wonder and invention and their whole executive team is nothing but enablement and tenacity and they were frustrated with them and they're saying, why is it that we are the only ones that come up with any of the ideas around here? And then we gave them this assessment instead of torturing their executive team, which were hired with specific gifts and geniuses to get things done. They're working frustration to make that group go in and do wonder invention, but that was their working frustration. What helped us about this Pam so much, especially when it comes to change management, we talked about and the lights went on when we were talking with people saying. Oh my gosh, I need to do this assessment to see where my staff looks because I want everyone working in their working genius.
[Pam] David, we also really talked a lot of two about, as we're doing all of this, while the widget is such a great analogy of it all, we talked about the emotions of the staff tied up into it, the emotions of the money being made or being missed. It was really a hard core thing for everyone to actually sit down and take a step back and talk about the emotions in their offices. Did you not find that was really enlightening to watch that?
[David] It was really enlightening and you see the consternation that a number of them were going through when they were talking about change because they care about their staff. I was just on another call earlier today, and this is the very thing that's torturing them. This particular executive does not want to change because he knows in his mind, he's going to have to eliminate a bunch of jobs. He doesn't want to it. I'm trying to get him to see you're not going to eliminate those. Let's retrain those people. Let's work these assessments. And when a company like nCino, which is so innovative and so creative and is so willing to help people. If you will work with listeners, with someone like nCino, who will help you through this transition and specifically Pam and her team, because she is the master of truly bringing the services, professional services to life in your organization. It can be such a transformative thing and it's coming, which we talked about in the book, The wave, which I recommend everyone saying it, it is happening. Yeah, you did.
[Pam] I thank you for recommending that to me because, I really liked the author's approach to this because it was not just one of these, I'm going to blow it up. AI is the best thing since sliced bread. This is awesome. He really broke it down into, the emotional aspect of it, how to really think about it, how to dissect it, how to plan for it. I really felt it was a good read.
[David] It's one that I think should be required reading by anyone out there in the industry right now, not because we're talking about things that can change it for fear, but how can we get on board with it and get ourselves aligned? One of the things I love about you, Pam, is you are willing to change. You have always been willing to adjust and I've watched how you've grown yourself personally and professionally over the years. It's just delightful to find people. You and I both have gray hair. Some may see some of the video here. So, there's gray hair on our heads, but we both have been willing to adjust and make the adjustments that are necessary. What are you seeing out there with some of the people that you're talking to that are struggling with this? What are some of the suggestions you would have for them that are struggling with the changes that are coming?
[Pam] One of the things that I always tell anyone that's ever worked with me, for me, around me or whatever is, become a sponge, make yourself a commodity. You talked about the person you met with earlier that did not want to change the automation because he felt like he had to eliminate jobs. Staff is just dying to learn something new. If you sit down and if you talk to 85% of your staff, they want to learn something that's new. They want to be involved with something that's new and I always caution everybody, just because you do it this way today, how can you do it better tomorrow? Do you have all the skills and the tools at your fingertips? What does it take to actually get those skills and tools? And I told a group here earlier this year, Yes, I have a lot of wisdom. It's my job, going into these latter parts of my career, which I will probably become a stuffed mummified mortgage person in somebody's office to impart everything that I have and translate it to something that those coming behind me may not have. It's my job to pay it forward and I think all of us that have been in this industry, you, me, as we've been going along these lines is to take everything that we've learned, teach those coming behind us, what it was and how they have it now, and think positively for the future about what can it be and I think that's one of the biggest things that has enabled me to evolve over the years.
[David] Yeah. And kudos to you and many others who have made the evolution and change. It's essential for where we're going. I look at companies like nCino and you guys have brought so much change to this industry. And you look at those that have adopted. What are some of the principles of the companies that you worked with that have successfully really deployed and integrated and see those products and services into the company. What are the keys that you would say needs to be there?
[Pam] I think the keys that need to be in any organization that have adopted our products has been that willingness to think outside the box, to want to drive to efficiencies. You and I've talked about all the new things, the features. Think about verifications for a minute, David. Back in the day, You and I were accustomed to people mailing out verifications and getting them back and had to have that blue ink all across it. But think about people today that actually innovate and want to take it a step further. I think that's what makes nCino one of those products out there that everybody wants to be a part of is, what's next? You got verifications, you've got credit, you've got a native mobile app. Some people may look at me and go, What? I can do this on the phone natively. It's not a web responsive platform. You've got innovation. We put a lot of money into research and development. Let's face it. We listen to our customers and I think that's one of the things that I stated last week. We are built for lenders because we're built by lenders. We take that customer's journey, that heartfelt emotion and response from them, and the request, and we actually go do something about it. We build it. We make it the future.
[David] It's really true. I think one of the things, especially when you look at the products, loan officers do not need to be in a LOS. They don't want to be, they should be in your app and that's it. And yours is an app where they can be out in the field. There's so many funny stories we could tell around that. I almost got fired because I would spend all the time out in the field and they required me to come in to do things. I said, this is not what I'm good at. I'm good in the field. We need to have tools and that's what nCino is doing is enabling people to do their genius. If you're a salesperson, your relationship genius, be in the field and nCino does a great job of equipping them. Why are you going to be at the annual MBA conference?
[Pam] I am. Oh my gosh. I am so happy you asked that. I am so excited. We've got the welcome party when you get there on Sunday night. We're going to be around at the booths. We're welcoming people to come up, schedule meetings with us and everything. So I am super stoked about this. I'm not going to say how many years I've been going to MBA annual, but it's always a pleasure. It's in Denver. What could be better?
[David] Yeah, it's a great place. And it has become like a class reunion because we get to see all people that we haven't seen in a year or sometimes longer and we get to get together and it's so important and it'll be so much fun to see others that nCino family that I didn't get to see. Are you going to be doing more of these executive forums? That was such a positive thing. Is this something that you'll be doing more of in the future?
[Pam] It is. This was our first inaugural one. Unfortunately, we had some folks that had to cancel due to Hurricane Milton, which heart felt sympathies, prayers and everything out to anyone that was impacted by it and Helene. But it was a great joining of lenders that came together from various walks IT staff to CIO, CTO, CEO and having that C suite there and to listen about what everybody's facing was incredible and everybody wanted to make sure that we're coming back next year, and we are. We are going to be back in Grapevine next year performing this same routine. Hopefully we'll have a few more things to throw at them, David.
[David] I'm looking forward to it, Pam. Thank you so much for taking time to be here. It was a delight to speak with you. Anytime I can do a podcast with you or get on stage with you. It is magical. It's just so much fun and kudos to the nCino team for having the vision to put together as an executive forum. It was really powerful.
[Pam] It was and David, I just want to say thank you so much for last week. That was incredible. It was a huge laugh, but it was also one of those things. Everybody took us very seriously about what we were sharing and I loved the collaboration at the end from everyone.
[David] Yeah, it was really fun. It was fun collaborating with you. Thank you so much for being here today. Share the love and we look forward to seeing you everyone get over to the nCino booth, get over and talk to Pam and her team. Awesome group. Thank you, Pam.
[Pam] Thank you David!
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Pamela Faulkner is Director of Professional Services at nCino, Inc. She has devoted the last 25 years of her 40-year mortgage career to helping lenders get the most out of their technology solutions. Her drive to create modern, mobile-friendly mortgage experiences was instrumental in the launch of nCino Mortgage’s mobile disclosures and the development of its eClose features. Pamela’s love of learning and willingness to share knowledge has also made her a highly sought-after educator and speaker in the industry.
